A TOPIC NOT DEALT WITH HERE.....HELP!

[Roofdad]

Homosexuality is a topic that seems to be in the news and in people's minds a lot these days, considering the gay marriage controversy in California.

In trying to evangelize those that are in need, as best I can, I have been asked many, many times recently, "What about gays? Will they go to hell?" Before I left the Acts 2 belief system that I was in, my answer would have been an emphatic "It is against God, and unless they repent, they will go to hell".
Since discovering right division, I just do not know what to say to these folks! I have learned that anyone that believes in the finished work of Christ on the cross is saved..... so I am guessing that also includes homosexuals? Is their sin any worse than any of the rest of us? Is His grace sufficient for them, too? What do I say to these people? Most of them believe that they were BORN that way! I simply do NOT believe that, as God creates in perfection, and NOT in abomination, right?

Paul seems to say that homosexuality is actually like a punishment..... that since men did not like to retain God in their minds, and hearts, that God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things that are not convenient.....

I just do NOT know what to say to these people!! Someone....my Dear Christine......Johnny? Kab? Pastor Trent? Help! I NEED to know what to say!!

[Christine]

Hey Darryl,

There is really not a whole lot TO say with regard to this topic, in my humble opinion, that hasn't already been said.

Homosexuality is a PERVERSION of the sanctity of the man/woman relationship that God reserved for marriage. One practicing such a lifestyle would be a direct contradiction to what we find in Gal. 2:20, where Christ is said to be living His life in and thru us. Would He be a homosexual?

Having said that, I realize that being saved does NOT make any of us "sinless", but that knowing and learning about GRACE "WILL" give us the tools we need to "sin LESS."

We don't need to say anything to these folks, Darryl, except to tell them, along with everyone else, the gospel which does save. They already KNOW that what they do is wrong and we are not told to judge those who are outside the Body of Christ, but those who are WITHIN. God is the One who said that the HOLY SPIRIT will convict the world of sin, righteousness and of judgement...its NOT our job!

Keep in mind that we don't have to address all the myriad of issues and jump on the bandwagon of ANY. We are told to be faithful to the message and ministry of "RECONCILIATION", not of selective "sins of the week" to become self righteous over. That is not what you have done, but it IS where it will lead if we continue to go down that road. Do ya see what I mean, jelly bean?

Whaddaya think?

[Roofdad]

We don't need to say anything to these folks, Darryl, except to tell them, along with everyone else, the gospel which does save. They already KNOW that what they do is wrong and we are not told to judge those who are outside the Body of Christ, but those who are WITHIN. God is the One who said that the HOLY SPIRIT will convict the world of sin, righteousness and of judgement...its NOT our job!

I know that we don't HAVE to say anything to these people........ but I was only looking at what I COULD say to them. I get asked quite frequently what I think about it. Actually, I hate it. My eldest brother is homosexual, and it kills me! I do, of course, tell them that it is a sin, and contrary to God. They, of course, say that we are not under the law anymore. I tell them that Paul said plenty about it, and his information came straight from Christ.
You gave me a scripture above, which I never thought of using in this...........(battle??) way. Thank you for your insight. You always seem to help me. Thanks once again!

[Christine]

People ask what WE think about it because it seems to be an area where they can ensnare us. No matter what we say we are "intolerant, judgemental, hateful, etc."

God is the One who has made the judgement on homosexuality. He doesn't call it an "alternative lifestyle." He calls it an abomination...a PERVERSION.

For one to be stuck in this lifestyle is only further proof that mankind is in serious need of some serious help. As with any sin, Christ died to FREE us from its power over us. If one stays in such a lifestyle, can he really be said to have come in contact with the LIVING Christ?

If we believe Gal. 2:20 and Christ is living HIS resurrection Life in and thru us, then how could they justify a homosexual lifestyle? NO, if Christ was living IN them, they would reject the abomination and flee from sin.

Does God still love them? You bet.

No one will go to hell BECAUSE of their sin...but because of UNBELIEF in the sin bearer. Once someone has come to Christ as their sin bearer....they will not continue in the sinful lifestyle of the homosexual. The two are incompatible.

Hope this helps. I also have a brother who is trapped in this.....they are too busy making rationalizations for their freedom to live their lives any way THEY want, to see the forest for the trees. It is a destructive lifestyle, unfortunately.

[MacTastic]

There are two things that can urge me, as a man, to embrace a homosexual lifestyle. Neither of them are any good, and both are quite real. The first is being ungrateful, i.e. having no regard or gratitude for my maleness; scorning the fact GOD made me a man. The second principle is lust; that good ol' fashioned I-want-what-I-want-when-I-want-it-no-matter-what mentality. Let's have a look.

Unthankfulness. So little is said about being appreciative and graciously receiving what we're given. We constantly compare. Our jobs, spouses, cars, homes, bank accounts and the number of times our children made the honor roll vs. how often your child did. Comparison isn't wrong. Comparing myself to CHRIST is not a bad idea at all--it allows me to see how corrupt I am (and I need to see that). But comparing myself to others is utter foolishness. It sets the stage for pride, vanity and envy. II Cor. 10:12b is universally applicable: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. I may not be real healthy, perhaps I'm grossly overweight and suffer from chronic hypertension, but I can always find a cancer patient who is sicker than I am. Through this standard of measurement, I'll rationalize my own lack of health, and prop myself up.

It needs to be re-stated: little is said about being appreciative and graciously receiving what we're given. There's many a man who would not leave his wife if  he were truly thankful for her. Same goes for wives. Pure simple gratitude can pave a long, long road, though it's rough, uneven or shallow. Thankfulness isn't the end-all-be-all, but it does need to be stressed. And when I refuse to be grateful, I'll be a candidate for all the filth and vileness Paul describes at the end of Romans chapter one (see especially vv. 28-30). Ingratitude is without excuse. An unthankful heart will not recognize and glorify GOD, will gravitate to vanity, and will become darkened (Ro. 1:21). In the case of my sexuality, not being thankful GOD made me a man--refusing to enjoy my masculinity--strikes at the very fabric of my person. You see, I can't escape my gender. And when I try to abandon the very design of my body, I create a vacuum that's too easily filled with...

Lust. Am I painfully overstating the obvious fact that a man's body was engineered to enjoy, and fulfill, a woman's body? There may well be mitigating circumstances that cause a man to turn to another man for a relationship of sexual desire and release, but the final reason is lust. There's no rationalizing it, there's no justifying it. It's a choice, and a very unnatural one. You could go so far as to say it's "against nature." The Bible does. In Romans 1:26, 27 Paul writes: For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. Men and women who express lust one toward another of the same gender are apt to claim they are just naturally doing so. In fact, it's against nature. The very form and fit of their bodies is an indictment against their vile affections. Take two naturally homosexual men and place them together on a natural island somewhere and show me how they're gonna naturally procreate. Uh-uh. It ain't happening: the plumbing's all wrong. It's against nature. It's been said that power corrupts and that absolute power corrupts absolutely, but that's not true. Lust corrupts (II Pet. 1:4).

There's no getting around it. A man who is not thankful GOD gave him his masculinity may turn to another man because his lust drives him there. It's a choice, not a genetic flaw or an environmental defect. It's sin. GOD's design for relationships is so much better! Can a man who practices homosexuality still be a saved man? A better question is, why would he want to?

[NewDawn]

Good post!

And what about those who have sex change operations? Turning themselves from a woman to a man and a man into a woman.  Their souls are still the same, no difference.  It still has to do with the lust, and covetousness they are after.  But now the excuse can be made that they can legally and morally be with the same sex they are attracted to. 

[MacTastic]

Left unchecked by the wisdom of GOD, there is no end to the depravity we can sink to, or run to! As you pointed out, lust can drive me to disfigure and mutilate my body (via surgery) in an attempt to socially justify a misplaced desire for the same gender. It is so against nature and the natural order GOD created for us as men and women.

[Roofdad]

Well said, Mac.
What really bothers me is that they claim that a holy God CREATED them this way!! That it is not a choice, but that they were actualy BORN GAY! That offends me so very much, that I can not even begin to expound! I ALWAYS, ALWAYS tell them that God creates in perfection, NOT in abomination! This is becoming like an epidemic in this country! It is everywhere you look!

AHHHH! It is sooooo sad! I can only say..... Come quickly, Lord Jesus!

Darryl

[MacTastic]

I know what you mean, it's easy to get very irritated with their lies. That's why I try to turn it back on them by explaining what they do is against the very laws of nature: Two "naturally" gay men can't naturally procreate with one another. It's unnatural, and therefor, a choice they made to be unnatural, and GOD has nothing to do with it. Of course, I realize a darkened heart is a darkened heart; very little reason gets in.

I'm glad you're angry about the topic (persons choosing to practice homosexuality and legitimize it, especially throwing the blame on GOD). We all need to be. Not angry for anger's sake, mind you, and not angry to display some puffed-up self-righteousness, but genuine godly anger over the wrongness of two persons who dishonor themselves sexually. In public. Who demand their farce to be recognized as a marriage. Who demand to adopt children. Who rack up medical bills commensurate with their unnatural lifestyle. Bills that I, as a taxpayer, get to pay (via Federal AIDS funding, or through increased premiums on my company's medical insurance). Like alot of sin, it's wrong on many levels.

[MaricoG]

Two "naturally" gay men can't naturally procreate with one another. It's unnatural, and therefor, a choice they made to be unnatural, and GOD has nothing to do with it.

MacTastic...that is the best I have ever heard it said.  Thanks a lot...

I have struggled with understanding this, and explaining it lately.  While I understand it Biblically...having listened to others, watfched movies...I got a bit off track in my feelings for their troubles, and not seeing the sin as clearly.  I stuck with the Bible, but like NoLeaks...found some of their arguments difficult to address. 

We all need to go to the Font to wash up moreoftn...as the world is pretty sticky! 

Praise God we have each other to help us clear it up so that we remain useful to our Saviour!  :-)

[NewDawn]

Another topic, unless I missed it.

I'm wondering what you all would do if you were on a forum that was about something totally different, with they have faith and wellness part.  In this section, there are Christian threads and then along comes an atheist thread. 

Would you go in that thread and start asking why they don't believe in God?

[Christine]

Another topic, unless I missed it.

I'm wondering what you all would do if you were on a forum that was about something totally different, where they have faith and wellness part.  In this section, there are Christian threads and then along comes an atheist thread. 

Would you go in that thread and start asking why they don't believe in God?

I would go into the section with the idea of where does God promise total health to anyone? Where were those promises found, and to whom were they addressed? I would counter them with comparisons of what we ARE promised in todays economy, such as "we are to walk by faith and not by sight", and "Gods grace IS sufficient for all our needs", and "we should GLORY in our infirmities" (as opposed to demanding that God HEAL US INSTANTLY).

If it is "appointed unto man ONCE to die...." then how do all these proponents of HEALING think that any of us will ever get to heaven. LOL LOL

 NOT being IGNORANT of what God "does and doesn't promise" in this present dispensation is imperative if we are to properly represent Him to the world. God isn't giving any prizes for misrepresenting His current plan and lying to people about what His goal is for them.

I'm not sure I answered your question, Diana...so if I didn't, let me know and we will try again....wink

[NewDawn]

LOL Christine,
I was wondering if I should have went into that thread and asked them why they believe as they do.

I wanted to go in thread, but I didn't.  Should I have?  And how do I handle that in the future.

 

[Christine]

LOL Christine,
I was wondering if I should have went into that thread and asked them why they believe as they do.

I wanted to go in thread, but I didn't.  Should I have?  And how do I handle that in the future.

 

Nahhh....that would only have opened a huge can of worms and put them on the defensive. You will learn to pick and choose those topics on which to take a STAND...and when to just remain quiet. As you study, you will be more comfortable as you will find passages that deal with the topic at hand and you will KNOW MORE.

The real issue here is that they are taking promises made to Israel and stealing them for themselves in this current age of GRACE. God is under NO obligation to DO for us that which was promised to another audience at another time. I would have left it  alone until I knew that I myself had a handle on the differences between Israels instructions and ours.

We are not obligated to provide the answers to ANYONE. You don't have to be the answer lady, and neither do I. But as we study and become more confident of what IS true, then we can venture to challenge the thinking of others. So...enjoy this time of learning and absorbing and getting ESTABLISHED before you saddle yourself with the responsibility of trying to convince those trapped in religious exercises to STOP.

Thats not our job...but satan will frustrate us by getting us to think that we have to set them straight. If the situation presents an opportunity for a question that will challenge their belief system...go for it. If not...keep your focus on learning the message so that it is second nature to you.

You are doing fine....I'm tickled pink with your enthusiam (that word actually comes from the greek word ENTHOS, which means "of God" or "from God") and your willingness to learn.

Huuuuugs sweetie

[NewDawn]

I'm glad that I didn't go there.  A couple other ladies, who I can tell do not know right division, went in that thread and got chewed up.  They finally closed that thread because it got out of control. 

I kept reading it, but I'm glad I didn't venture in.  I am happy studing, learing and growing.  I know my time will come when I'll have to speak up, but until then, I'll keep a learning!!