Howdy!

[Hudson]

Oasis referred me to this site. Like Oasis & Star I’m a former member of the Church of Christ. I’m currently a member of a non-denominational congregation that has a community church format. I’ve been a Christian for 40+ years and a bible teacher, deacon, and elder in the Church of Christ. My wife and I were Southern Baptist until 1977. We agreed, at that time, to have a bible study with a Church of Christ Minister and ended up spending the next 27 years of our lives in the c of C.

I’m one of those people that want the round pegs to fit in the round holes. There were many pieces of the Restorationist theology puzzle that didn’t fit and harmonize with scripture. As time passed those inconsistencies became progressively more problematic for me.

Sometime in the late 90’s I set my traditions and teachings aside and started over. I learned much later that I was simply following a recognized physiological behavioral pattern that becomes prevalent when a believer rejects “herd mentality” and begins to think and reason for themselves. Technically, I was moving from stage 3 to stage 4 faith.

I’ve been actively studying and researching scripture, as well as various doctrinal philosophies, since then. Spiritually, I’m a Christian and a Christian only. My theology comes from a variety of hermeneutical interpretations. I have not found any group’s theological “package” to be doctrinally acceptable and I do not expect that I ever will. I suppose I could be classified as a theologically independent Christian. 

I did not adopt the dispensation, or hyper-dispensational, view of the books of Acts. I came to similar conclusions thru my own independent studies. Truthfully, that is about the only part of the dispensational doctrine that is attractive to me.

I am here, however, with an open mind and a willingness to examine and consider different perspectives and beliefs.  I expect that I will do more reading than posting, but I’m opinionated and tend to blab a lot too. So, who knows?

[Christine]

We welcome you, Hudson. 

Be sure to take advantage of our FREE offer of study materials that I know you will find very informative and enlightening. Rightly dividing the word of Truth is the ONLY way that the scriptures come alive and make any sense at all. TWO forms of worship given us in ONE book, and we are told to keep them separate thru rightly dividing them. We are not to ascribe to the Body of Christ that which belongs to Israel alone, and vice versa.

It is wonderful to KNOW what program God is currently operating under, so that we can cooperate WITH Him in it. I spent 25 years as a Southern Baptist and can empathize with your journey and conclusions to a great degree. Feel free to ask questions, to think aloud and to voice your concerns. We also have LIVE Bible Study on Tues/Thurs nites on Paltalk if you think you might be interested. Let me know if you need more information as to how to find us there.

In the meantime, I hope to hear from you with your mailing address so that we can send you our free material for your perusal. The material we provide is the same material that gave me many a "metanoia" moment in my walk with Christ, and has cleared up much of the muddle and mixed up doctrine I carried with me.

Times PAST, But NOW, and ages to COME is how the Bible is laid out, and by rightly dividing it as God tells us to, we become able ministers to others of Gods plan and purpose for the Body of Christ today.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Christine and Johnny Angel
Administrators of GRACE TEACHER FORUMS

[Lu]

Hi Hudson
Welcome to the forum; I hope you enjoy reading through the articles here.  They are the best I've ever found.  I, too, am an independent Christian who rejects the herd mentality. 

YFIC,  Lu

[Hudson]

.... Rightly dividing the word of Truth is the ONLY way that the scriptures come alive and make any sense at all. TWO forms of worship given us in ONE book, and we are told to keep them separate thru rightly dividing them. We are not to ascribe to the Body of Christ that which belongs to Israel alone, and vice versa.

...Times PAST, But NOW, and ages to COME is how the Bible is laid out, and by rightly dividing it as God tells us to, we become able ministers to others of Gods plan and purpose for the Body of Christ today.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Christine and Johnny Angel
Administrators of GRACE TEACHER FORUMS

Thanks for the welcome Christine. I will confess that one of my first impressions of the dispensational view point is disturbing. It could be argued that the Church of Christ is a cult. They certainly display cult like traits. They built an entire religion on Acts 2:38. It seems to me dispensationalist are attempting to build a religion on II Tim 2:15, and just like the c of C is interpreting their pet verse from a present day English bible, which leads to an incorrect understanding, I see dispensationalist doing the same thing with their emphasis on II Tim. I believe rightly dividing should correctly be interpreted as rightly handling. Paul’s mission was to convince people that Christ was the Messiah. I believe he was instructing Timothy to prove Christ deity & Lordship from OT prophesy to unbelievers. I do not believe this verse is proof text for a separate Jewish/Christian dispensation. What we call the NT, after all, was still in the process of being written. I see no way that II Tim could be refering to a separate Jew Gentile dispensation.

I am uncomfortable with any religious group that overly emphasizes one scripture, or a couple of scriptures, to validate their doctrine. When I hear that I see a giant red flag waving in the breeze. I do not disagree with the ultimate conclusions and interpretation of Acts from the dispensational viewpoint, but I have concerns about the doctrinal hard-line atmosphere that I’ve encountered while investigating dispensational theological views. My past religious affiliation has made me skeptical and wary when I encounter views that strike me as overly dogmatic and rigid.

[Christine]

 Hey there Hudson,

Oh we understand your initial response very well....all of us having had the same reaction ourselves when WE first heard Pauline theology.

 Dispensationalism is not about ONE verse, but about scripture interpreting scripture and realizing that God indeed changed programs from Judaism to Christianity and will go BACK to Judaism after the church the Body of Christ is raptured.

I have no problem with your interpretation of rightly dividing...it IS to rightly handle the Word of God and to realize that Peter and Paul did NOT preach the same gospel at all! The mere mention of two SEPARATE names for them should give us reason to pause...the gospel of the CIRCUMCISION and the gospel of the UNcircumcision. They cannot be the same thing....and should cause us to study further to see the actual differences.

Times PAST, But Now and ages to come are how the Bible IS laid out. These terms are also biblical and can be found in Eph. 2:11,12 13 and v.7.

Gen thru Acts is God dealing with the Nation Israel.

Romans thru Philemon is a parenthetical INTERUPTION, if you will, of Gods everlasting covenant with the NATION of Israel as she is set aside in UNBELIEF along with all the other nations. God deals with the church which is His BODY in these books alone, which can include those who happen to be jewish but who come to God on His terms thru the finished work of Christ on their behalf.

Hebrews thru Revelation is again addressed the Nation Israel when God RESUMES His unfinished program with them which they signed up for in Lev. 26.

While we can certainly LEARN from all of scripture, NOT all of scripture was written TO us or ABOUT us. If we are honest, we will acknowledge that the majority of the Bible is addressed TO and ABOUT the Nation of Israel, and it is said of "us", that we are "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise."

We need to know where to go to find OUR specific mail and our specific apostle. Peter and the boys were ministers of the CIRCUMCISION, which means that they didn't have information pertinent to we who are the Body of Christ at ALL. The Body of Christ was not in existance UNTIL the apostle Paul was raised up and saved as its first member.


Please let me send you a study brochure which lists the 14 doctrines (which INCLUDE the formation of the church which is His BODY) that you won't find anywhere but in Pauls epistles.

He is OUR apostle and was raised up BY God to administer the information needed for this present dispensation of the GRACE of God.

You will be amazed at what you have missed thru limiting yourself to conventional bible study. I hope you will allow me to send you this material. THEN you can tell me what you think.

[NewDawn]

Hi Hudson! Welcome, my name is Diana and I believe you're going to love it here!  I myself have learned so much from this website, Christine and Trent.
I hope you stick around!!   

[Christine]

AAAAAAmen, NewDawn.....tehe

[Hudson]

Hey there Hudson,


Please let me send you a study brochure which lists the 14 doctrines (which INCLUDE the formation of the church which is His BODY) that you won't find anywhere but in Pauls epistles.

Thank you for the offer. I may get back to you on that at some future date. As of now, I'm finding a substantial amount of information on the web. I am also reading Bro Les Feldick's site.

Thanks,
Hudson

[Oasis]

Howdy Hudson,

Welcome aboard!  You'll find a plethora of study material here.  I'm still reading through things I haven't seen yet.  Feel free to "blab" all you want.  Good Scriptural discussion is how we all learn from one another.  Please ask any questions that come to mind. 

In Christ,
Kab

[Christine]

Hey there Hudson,


Please let me send you a study brochure which lists the 14 doctrines (which INCLUDE the formation of the church which is His BODY) that you won't find anywhere but in Pauls epistles.

Thank you for the offer. I may get back to you on that at some future date. As of now, I'm finding a substantial amount of information on the web. I am also reading Bro Les Feldick's site.

Thanks,
Hudson

Hello again, Hudson

I am curious as to where you put your CoC belief in water baptism as part of the salvation package? If you still believe that water baptism has a part in saving someone, then what do you do with the verses that speak about the ONE baptism in Eph 4:5?

Are we saved by the finished work of Christ alone, or does water play a part in your belief system?

Have you studied the differences between Judaism and Christianity on  this topic? The Jews were REQUIRED to make water baptism a part of their salvation instructions. They were a Nation of PRIESTs and the cleansing ritual was to set them apart from all other NATIONS.

If we try to pull what is clearly a CIRCUMCISION directive into the different gospel given to we who are His body, do you not see this as "making the Cross of none effect?"

I don't know how far you have gone into this in your studies, but it is sure worth a "look-see."

The Pastor who heads up this ministry is a former C o C Pastor. You would learn much from a dialogue with him and we encourage you to attend our LIVE Bible Study on Tues/Thurs nites on Paltalk. The name of the room is "Gods Will Made Clear."

We have Questions and Answer sessions following the study.

[Hudson]

Hey there Hudson,


Please let me send you a study brochure which lists the 14 doctrines (which INCLUDE the formation of the church which is His BODY) that you won't find anywhere but in Pauls epistles.

Thank you for the offer. I may get back to you on that at some future date. As of now, I'm finding a substantial amount of information on the web. I am also reading Bro Les Feldick's site.

Thanks,
Hudson

Hello again, Hudson

I am curious as to where you put your CoC belief in water baptism as part of the salvation package? If you still believe that water baptism has a part in saving someone, then what do you do with the verses that speak about the ONE baptism in Eph 4:5?

Are we saved by the finished work of Christ alone, or does water play a part in your belief system?

Have you studied the differences between Judaism and Christianity on  this topic? The Jews were REQUIRED to make water baptism a part of their salvation instructions. They were a Nation of PRIESTs and the cleansing ritual was to set them apart from all other NATIONS.

If we try to pull what is clearly a CIRCUMCISION directive into the different gospel given to we who are His body, do you not see this as "making the Cross of none effect?"

I don't know how far you have gone into this in your studies, but it is sure worth a "look-see."

The Pastor who heads up this ministry is a former C o C Pastor. You would learn much from a dialogue with him and we encourage you to attend our LIVE Bible Study on Tues/Thurs nites on Paltalk. The name of the room is "Gods Will Made Clear."

We have Questions and Answer sessions following the study.

I don't embrace any of the unique c of C doctrinal beliefs anymore. That is the reason I withdrew from them. There was a period of time that I bought into the "baptism for the remission of sin" c of C teaching but letting go of that wasn't a problem. I've done quite a bit of focused study on the history of baptism and specifically the Jewish Mikveh's. I've been studying the Jew-Gentile dynamic for about three years now. I came to conclusions similar to your beliefs on my own. I've also done some extensive study into the history of the bible and the canonization process.

I began rebuilding my faith from the ground up about 10 yeas ago. Traditionalist would not be comfortable with many of my beliefs & views. Your views on esgetology and sola scriptura would likely not be compatible with mine. My understanding of grace would also likely be outside your comfort zone. I firmly renounce legalism in all forms and practices, which often conflicts with many traditionalist views. Basically, I’m a maverick and non-conformist but still a committed follower of Christ.

[Christine]

Well, I am glad to hear that you don't go along with any of the C o C doctrines. 

As for being a maverick...we all have to conform to something as the TRUTH by its very nature demands a following. I hope you continue your studies and examine the fact that Paul is called to be the apostle to we who are the church which is His BODY and that he was given certain doctrines unique ONLY to him and this walk which we call Christianity as opposed to Judaism.

We are to follow PAUL as he followed Christ, and he didn't follow Christ in His earthly ministry, but in His role of Risen Savior and Lord.

Christ RISEN spoke thru Paul to we who would become members of His body thru faith in "the gospel of OUR salvation."

We welcome your inquiries and use of our study materials for your edification. Most of us here have LEFT what we formerly welcomed as doctrine, and have come to a new understanding of the scriptures thru recognizing the differences in the two gospels of the Circumcision and that of the UNcircumcision.

A book you might want to check out is THE PLOT by Bob Enyart. It is not sold in stores but has a plethora of information on the vast differences between Judaism and Christianity as well as charts for study as well. A real eye opener for those wishing to know how to study their Bibles for the maximum degree of both understanding and practical use for today.

Let me know if you are interested.

Glad to have you here.

[Hudson]

Well, I am glad to hear that you don't go along with any of the C o C doctrines. 

As for being a maverick...we all have to conform to something as the TRUTH by its very nature demands a following. I hope you continue your studies and examine the fact that Paul is called to be the apostle to we who are the church which is His BODY and that he was given certain doctrines unique ONLY to him and this walk which we call Christianity as opposed to Judaism.

We are to follow PAUL as he followed Christ, and he didn't follow Christ in His earthly ministry, but in His role of Risen Savior and Lord.

Christ RISEN spoke thru Paul to we who would become members of His body thru faith in "the gospel of OUR salvation."

We welcome your inquiries and use of our study materials for your edification. Most of us here have LEFT what we formerly welcomed as doctrine, and have come to a new understanding of the scriptures thru recognizing the differences in the two gospels of the Circumcision and that of the UNcircumcision.

A book you might want to check out is THE PLOT by Bob Enyart. It is not sold in stores but has a plethora of information on the vast differences between Judaism and Christianity as well as charts for study as well. A real eye opener for those wishing to know how to study their Bibles for the maximum degree of both understanding and practical use for today.

Let me know if you are interested.

Glad to have you here.

Thanks for your thoughts Christine. I don’t find a duel gospel hypnosis to be noteworthy beyond matters of interpretation and clarity. I agree with your conclusions but it appears that I don’t assign the same level of significance to them that your group does. I don’t feel particularly comfortable with the strong emphasis on your groups  “rightly dividing” theme either. That reminds me too much of the c of C dogmatic references to restoring first century worship patterns.

My c of C experience has likely made me a little tentative when I encounter groups who appear to me to be placing too much emphasis on a single issue or scripture. That may just be part of my doctrinal detoxification process though. I may still be a little gun shy.

I am pleased to find others that see a duel gospel scenario in the New Testament though. The traditionalist tend to look at you funny when you suggest such a possibility.

Blessing to you my sister. I’ve enjoyed the conversation.

Hudson